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A Forbidden Fantasy
 
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Below are the 15 most recent journal entries recorded in icyblackflame's LiveJournal:

Monday, February 26th, 2007
4:45 pm
First Half to Response to Breath 2
[quote] I never said you would. I know you won't. There isn't any.[/quote]
None that you’d be willing to accept.
[quote] I gave sources for all my stats so yes they do count.

I don't need to give proof that free will exists. Free will is the positive claim and you have the burden of proof for asserting it.[/quote]
I hadn’t read your later responses so sorry.

And what…?
[quote] Like this one:
Free Will
Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

This definition goes against all evidence.[/quote]
That definition, yes.
[quote]No. It only proves that people believe in free will. I experience the same thing you do, yet I attribute it to naturalistic causes. Is this proof of determinism? No. Obviously, experience is not good enough.[/quote]
Okay >.>
[quote]Did you do it? Yes. Was there a "choice" involved? No.[/quote]
That doesn’t make sense at all.
[quote]You assert this but can't tell me where that point is. You even admit this. You can't tell me what the fundamental difference is between a rock and a human.[/quote]
I’ve already stated that I am not a scientist, and that is the only reason why I cannot. I can’t tell you where that point is because it is circumstantial. I do not believe that there is just a line that divides it, and even if there was, what do you expect? Would you want me to name everything? Sorry. There are just too many circumstances.
[quote]Dirt doesn't have free will because it hasn't been proven to have free will. There's my proof. And the fact that dirt can't think is a difference in complexity, not in fundamentals. Both we and rocks are bound by physical laws and therefore neither operate by this undefined, unsupported, in evidenced free will.[/quote]
What do physical properties have to do with anything? Many things have similar properties–probably everything–but that does not change the fact that they are different. Germs basically have the same properties, but because of their differences, the effects differ immensely. The complexity is where the difference lies. There is a difference. The fact that rocks can’t think [i]is[/i] the difference. It makes us different. I’m sure that I have a lot in common with the chair that I am sitting on, but we have many differences. You’re not making sense to me.
Oh no, the C word again! In all the definitions of free will, there is choice. What is choice? Well, no matter what you think it is, I don’t think that anyone would assume that something that cannot think can choose to do something. Dirt will never have whatever anyone thinks free will or choice because it doesn’t have the properties to allow such things.
[quote] Yeah, and fish and snakes and dogs and chimps. So where did free will come into the picture? If you can't answer that simple question and tell me what makes us different, you lose. You have to concede. The only reason you're continuing right now is your emotional attachment to free will. You believe it because you think you feel it, you've been taught we have it, and a lot of people are on your side. None of those are good arguments.[/quote]
Why do we think? Why would we be granted thought? What’s the point then? Why do some things think and others do not?
[quote] I can claim victory without offering proof. That's my right by not carrying the burden of proof. My proof is your LACK of proof.[/quote]
Same to you.
[quote]Of COURSE we can assume I'm right. Everything in the universe only operates in two ways. Determined and random. That's it. Those are the only logical possibilities as well. People like you posit a third, free will, and offer no proof.

If you open 100,000,000 boxes and every box contained either a ball or a cube, it is reasonable to assume that the next box will hold a ball or a cube. It is not reasonable to assume that it will be a square circle. Fisrt off, it doesn't fit with our existing knowledge and second it is illogical.[/quote]
That makes sense and it does not to me. I mean, here, it does. But other things you have said are not making sense to me. That’s why I’m having trouble accepting this.
[quote]That's exactly my point. That may cause you to choose the one you like. Or maybe you're really daring and curious about the one you don't like. That might cause you to bypass your likes and cater to your sense of adventure. Either way, your actions are caused.[/quote]
Right. But only because you tried it in the first place. They have reasons behind them. That does not mean that you didn’t choose it though. I chose the spaghetti over the pizza. This decision was caused by the fact that the pizza looked disgusting and runny, and the fact that I tried it before and the spaghetti was better. Where is choice not involved? Cause is involved also, but only because of the initial choice in the first place. I’m weighing the possibilities. Either way, I chose which one I wanted. I had the option.
[quote] What do you think you would say if our actions are determined, but we experience a sensation of "choice" because of our consciousness?[/quote]
Expand.
[quote] Not always. I don't have experience getting shot in the head but I know not to let it happen because I'll die and I don't want that to happen. We can learn about things without directly experiencing them. We also have instincts handed down to us through evolution. We tend to avoid going into the wilderness at night unless we know what we're doing because doing so is dangerous. If our ancestors tried it, they mightve died and we wouldn't be here today. So yes, those things do come from experience but not always.[/quote]
I never said personal experience. Someone had experience getting shot in the head. You learned from that that getting shot in the head would not be a good think. Whether or not it was yours is irreverent. You learned from someone’s experience. Things always come from experience. If it did not, then we’d just have random knowledge coming from nowhere. If it was from our ancestors, then it is from their experience, is it not? They are just passing the knowledge down to us so we know. How do things not always come from it?
[quote]There's that word "meant" again. And now you're introducing "allow." You're assuming that the thing which "allowed" his actions to occur was free will. I exchange the word for "caused" and suddenly those things like "curiosity or what" make sense and have biological mechanisms to which we can give credit.[/quote]
They were “caused” because of our emotions, were they not? I don’t know how to word this in a way that you’d be willing to accept. The way I see it, “caused” and “allowed” don’t really make a difference here. You could word it to make both of the fit perfectly and mean one in the same.
[quote] Obviously not. He wouldn't have chosen wrongly if he knew what the outcome would be. But since we can't predict the future 100% of the time, we have to weigh benefits and consequences, as well as likelihoods of success. That's what the brain does and it does so very much like a computer would. None of that suggests free will. In fact, I don't even know what WOULD suggest free will because no one can even explain what free will is without running themselves in circles.[/quote]
You just kind of proved my point. All of that coincides with choice. I’m saying, why would there even be the option of doing something wrong? Why would we even have to know the future if we are not given a choice? That doesn’t make sense. Since we can’t choose anything, then who cares? It’s all laid out on a path for us.

It just doesn’t make sense.
[quote] In a sense, yes. But, there isn't some man behind the curtain giving us guidance or goals. We are the result of evolution. We inherit our parents' traits. If there trait is that they fuck and makes kids, you get that too. If they don't have that, you wouldn't exist to have this conversation. Thus, most everyone likes wants to fuck and have kids and have other traits to help them do it... things like emotions, but also intelligence, strength, sweat, etc.[/quote]
So they are there for a reason. What do they have to do with fucking and having kids? You don’t have to be emotionally attached to someone in order to fuck and have kids. It doesn’t make it any easier.
[quote] Negative emotions might seem strange to you, but you aren't an expert in emotions or their evolutionary backgrounds, so that's not surprising and I hope you're smart enough to just leave it at that: You don't understand negative emotions. Don't take that ignorance and carry it into an irrational belief. [/quote]
I’m not. That doesn’t make sense.
[quote] American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source

e•mo•tion (ĭ-mō'shən) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. A mental state that arises spontaneously rather than through conscious effort and is often accompanied by physiological changes; a feeling: the emotions of joy, sorrow, reverence, hate, and love.
2. A state of mental agitation or disturbance: spoke unsteadily in a voice that betrayed his emotion. See Synonyms at feeling.
The part of the consciousness that involves feeling; sensibility: "The very essence of literature is the war between emotion and intellect" (Isaac Bashevis Singer).[/quote]
In psychology, they said that temperament is passed through genes, not emotions. This is just what I learned, not what I think. Well, I agree with it also, but I am not just telling you my opinion. Since it is a state of mind, it doesn’t even make sense that emotions are passed through inheritance. Your “fuck and have kids” example doesn’t work. That is not psychological. That is a physical property. Having sperm and an egg. Nothing emotional about it.
[quote] First off, I did counter your argument by pointing out that you define free will as the ability to "choose," and that just takes us in circles. Your definition is erroneous.

Secondly, dirt may not think, but what makes thinking any different from what a rock does except that thinking is more complex? Fundamentally, there is no difference.

No, rocks do not think.
No, rocks do not have free will.
Yes, humans do think.
No, humans do not have free will.[/quote]
I’ve shown this to 12 people and it made sense to none of them. I just wanted to make sure that I am not getting stupider.

A rock just sits there. That’s all. The fact that humans are more complex is everything here. What are you not getting? When we’re arguing differences, you can’t just take away the difference and say, “see, now we’re basically the same.” That’s like, durh. Take away the differences of everything and everything will be the same. That gets us nowhere. Stick with the differences. We’re not stupid here.

There’s one type of thought. One. There are no differences. Now, there are an endless variety of what can be thought, but not thought itself. You can argue a rock and a human. You can also argue a dead human and a human that is alive. What is the difference? It does not only lie within physical properties, you know. What is a human without a mind? A soul? Emotions? It certainly is not a rock. But can you still consider it completely human? Physically, sure. But physical properties do not make up every ounce of a human, since we are more “complex.”
[quote]If they do something wrong, then something IS wrong. That's how I make the assumption.[/quote]
I suppose that it could be a condition that does need to be treated. I’m not taking this seriously since time and teaching are considered treatments. Maybe some thinking tme.

That’s not good enough to prove anything seriously. When you think about it, sure. That just sucks everything out of everything and oversimplifies to the point of ridiculousness.
[quote]First I'd find out everything about the situation, then I'd figure out what caused him to think it was a good idea, and then I'd take appropriate action to make sure next time it won't happen again. Then, I'd release him.[/quote]
Why would you assume right off the bat that they thought that it was a good idea? People don’t always do things because it is a good idea. They may do it because they feel like they have to.

I’ll touch the second part later. There’s another section that I want to address it in. Where you totally went off for no reason. The overall picture doesn’t make sense at all. Keep reading to find out why.
[quote]I already answered this. There are all sorts of non-medical treatments. But at any rate, theft could be tied to medical conditions, such as kleptomania.[/quote]
Again, I will touch base with this further down.
[quote]So you steal whenever you know you won't get caught? That's what you're telling me? Answer that before I answer yours. I want you to think about that and draw your own conclusions.[/quote]
You want me to have an amazing moment of self-discovery? Not working. You should have just expanded.

Yes, sometimes I do not steal simply because I would get in trouble. You’re fooling yourself if you think that everyone doesn’t do something simply because “it is wrong.” Temptation does not go away. Because “it is wrong to steal,” that won’t stop the temptation of wanting to have or take something. You can’t help those thoughts. The fear of punishment scares people, so it makes them back off. The best you can do is not allow those thoughts to take you over. Don’t let them convince you to steal.

The law is, “do not steal,” not, “do not think about stealing.”

Wait. I read that wrong. I do not steal when I know that I will not get caught. I am just saying that sometimes the only reason I do not steal is because I could get caught and in trouble. But it does not mean that I steal.
[quote]You treat them.[/quote]
I meant “how,” but whatever. I speaking medically.
[quote]People kill even though it's illegal, so what's your point? You're arguing from irrational fear. You THINK that people are holding back from killing people because of the laws. Based on that, think think that without them, we'd be in total mayhem. And since we're not in total mayhem, your original belief is reinforced. It's a vicious cycle and it's unjustified.


According to your ideas about punishment, Texans should be shaking in their cowboy boots just over the thought of killing somebody. We execute a lot of people in this state. We're really really strict. I bet our murder rate is tiny... Nope.[/quote]
That is because, overall, it is still considered morally wrong and legally wrong. If we were to take away the law, then, eventually, people will not view it as wrong anymore. People will do it because there is no moral complexity behind it.

And the majority of people in America have not killed someone, mainly because they believe that it is wrong or because the law keeps them in check. Think back in history. There was no law that killing was wrong (not American history. Well, yes, but think other countries), and the killing rates were higher. No punishment or morality check = no fear of doing it. Putting my pencil on my desk after I finish writing is not illegal, correct? Well, let’s say in a few decades, stupidness aside (please get the point and not the simplicity), it is a felony. It is considered a sin and completely morally and legally wrong. Inhumane in some cases. Considering that this is future generations we are talking about, do you not think that making it against the law would make someone think? Fast forward a few centuries where people are used to this being oh so horrible. Taking the law away would not change some people’s minds’, correct? Because they grew up thinking that it is wrong, so they will probably carry that psych with them for the rest of their life. Now, let’s say that some people start…just doing it. And, eventually, it’s kind of normal. Generations later, it may not seem like such a bad thing. A century later, then amount of people who still think that it is bad may be drastically decreased. I mean, we started off as, “killing is okay,” and then through some random decision, we decided that people have the right to life, so it is illegal.

Some people do it anyway, not necessarily because they think that it is “right.” It is silly to assume that. But the thoughts of this era are enough to convince people not to do it,
[quote] So let them rob the bank. So what? They'll only get one shot at it. If we send them to jail they'll just get out and try again. Which is worse, one attempt or two?

Besides,we'd be allowed to beat the shit out of them to stop them from robbing the bank (defense of property). It is only afterwards that we should avoid punishment. They might be deterred by the possibility that they may get shot trying to hold hostages.[/quote]
The last point proves choice. It was caused by the possibilities, but they are still given the choice to do so or not.

Where are you getting the idea that I think that choice is random? Of course I think that it is caused by something, but they still have the choice.

First part. Keep reading. I don’t want to say this over and over and over when I can say it once.
[quote] But then what's the point of jail if you've already treated them? You'd be jailing a different person. That would be like throwing away a computer you just had repaired. [/quote]
Right. Throw them in jail while they are in the stae of mind that they are in now. Then treat.
[quote] Incestual rape and no jailtime? In what state? That's VERY hard to believe.

But still, I agree with the decision. I'm sorry if it doesn't quench Sara's thirst for revenge, but at least she's safe now. [/quote]
How do you know that? You can’t just assume that the “treatment” will work. Again, keep reading. I wish you exploded a little earlier.
[quote]I could be wrong, but wasn't the general concensus that he probably didn't actually "kidnap" the boy but rather took him in as a runaway? They probably gave him a slap on the wrist because they thought the boy was with him willingly. So although the case appears to be in my favor, it's not.[/quote]
Listen, Breath. I see a pattern here. I give you the story, and you change it and add in all these random scenarios so they fit your point better. I gave you the story. Stop trying to change it. Stop adding things into it. If I say snickers, don’t change it to starbursts, okay?

I said that it was a KIDNAP. Don’t change it into holding him. For some other case, it may have been, but we are talking about THIS case. Stop changing the stories. Stick with the ones I give you.
[quote]It works great for most of us. But those who have conditions are being treated like dogs and that's just wrong. That's like beating a retarded child for breaking something just to prove the point that if anyone else breaks something they'll get hit too. Unfortunately, the retarded child finds himself in that situation a lot. [/quote]
“Those of us who have conditions?” But all of us have conditions. And don’t even explode again, because, of what you’ve said, it makes sense that all of us have a condition for something, not a disease. I am acknowledging that.

Maybe for that example, you should have said, “those of us who have diseases.” A condition can be attributed to self-fault, it seems.
[quote]Computer models have shown that evolution is the likely culprit for developing such patterns in human behavior. You can check The Selfish Gene (Dawkins) for the biological information or The Evolution Of Cooperation (Axelrod) for the strategic information. I wish I had a link to my bookshelf.[/quote]
Okay. But wtf does that have to do with anything?
[quote]No, I don't concur. The "teaching" would be considered destined as well.[/quote]
But teaching wouldn’t work in that case. Geez. Why is nothing you’re saying making sense? Why would something be destined to only to have someone else teach it away? Since nothing is being accomplished there, it would just make sense to not have it happen in the first place.
[quote]Condition, and if there were no conditions, I think we'd have proof of free will. But, there are always conditions.[/quote]
Disagree first past agree second.
[quote]That doesn't make sense. People use similar phrases as expressions, but they don't reflect the real world. No one does something just to do it.[/quote]
Sure they do. Scientifically, maybe no. Logically, sure. If I started to scream just to scream, then what? Let’s say that the “cause” or “condition” was boredom. Did it come from some random whatever? No. They had the choice to do it and they did. It was caused by something, but they still just did it to do it.
[quote]Yes, they do. They may do it for attention, perhaps. In such a case, if their actions are justified, the parents get the treatment (thus the child receives indirect treatment), but if the parents are giving a reasonable amount of attention to the child, then the child needs direct help.[/quote]
Why would the parents get treatment? Eh…indirect treatment? If the child is not the one with the problem, then they aren’t the one receiving treatment. They are only affected by the treatment, yes? But I get the point.
[quote]You didn't answer the question. You tried to get around it by pretending as though the origin of the robot and human was relevant.[/quote]
There was no question, No question worth answering, at least. To answer your question, I would re-program the robot, but it never did anything wrong. The family Guy example wasn’t working for you, I see. That’s like you sitting there doing noting, and all of a sudden, a rock hits you in your face. Now, why blame the person who threw the rock? They didn’t hit you! Pick the rock up…”treat it” (>.> work with me here), and…there ya go. I wouldn’t do anything to the robot because it is not the robot’s fault. It can’t even think. It has no choice. I would blame it on the programmer and throw him in jail because he programmed the robot to hurt the person.

This is “conditionally” speaking, of course.
[quote] I've pointed out your logical mistakes. You have yet to point out mine. You're just bringing up a bunch of "What ifs." We could go back and forth for days claiming that we are each the more logical debators, but my work shows for itself. [/quote]
Many of your points can be unproven just by reading them. The “wtf?!” is the disproving part.
[quote] Again, the word choice. What does it mean to choose? Tell me. Tell me, tell me, tell me. Stop beating around the damn bush and just tell me. Stop making assertions without backing them up "We choose this, we choose that" Back. It. Up. [/quote]
[quote] 7 results for: choose
• [ Nearby Entries ]
choo-chooedchoo-chooingchoo-chooschoochoochookchookiechoomchoorachoosablechoose upchooserChooser Optionchooseroptionchooseschooseychoosierchoosiestchoosinesschoosingchoosy View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | All Reference | the Web
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
choose tʃuz - Show Spelled Pronunciation[chooz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, chose; cho•sen or (Obsolete ) chose; choos•ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to select from a number of possibilities; pick by preference: She chose Sunday for her departure.
2. to prefer or decide (to do something): He chose to run for election.
3. to want; desire.
4. (esp. in children's games) to contend with (an opponent) to decide, as by odd or even, who will do something: I'll choose you to see who gets to bat first.
–verb (used without object)
5. to make a choice: He chose carefully.
6. to be inclined: You may stay here, if you choose.
7. (esp. in children's games) to decide, as by means of odd or even, who will do something: Let's choose to see who bats first.
—Verb phrase
8. choose up,
a. to select (players) for a contest or game: The boys chose up sides for the game.
b. to select players for a contest or game: We have to choose up before we can play.

—Idiom
9. cannot choose but, cannot do otherwise than; is or are obliged to: He cannot choose but obey.
________________________________________
[Origin: bef. 1000; ME chosen, chésen, OE céosan; c. Goth kiusan, OHG kiosan (G kiesen); akin to Gk geúesthai to enjoy, L gustāre to taste (see GUSTO) ]

—Related forms
choos•a•ble, adjective
chooser, noun

—Synonyms 1. CHOOSE, SELECT, PICK, ELECT, PREFER indicate a decision that one or more possibilities are to be regarded more highly than others. CHOOSE suggests a decision on one of a number of possibilities because of its apparent superiority: to choose a course of action. SELECT suggests a choice made for fitness: to select the proper golf club. PICK, an informal word, suggests a selection on personal grounds: to pick a winner. The formal word ELECT suggests a kind of official action: to elect a representative. PREFER, also formal, emphasizes the desire or liking for one thing more than for another or others: to prefer coffee to tea.
—Antonyms 1. reject.
[/quote]
You don’t have to be lazy. Dictionary’s right around the corner.

But it doesn’t matter. Since when is the dictionary good enough for you?
[quote] And you just gave a great example of a failure of reading comprehension.

Treatment DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN MEDICAL TREATMENT.

I've said time and time again that education is one way, time is another (especially for young children). There are all sorts of treatments that don't involve medical intrusion.[/quote]
Well, then it does not work then. You keep saying over and over and over “treat him so that he does not do it again.” If I understand correctly, medical treatment is the only type that can…do whatsits to your brain and chemically (or whatever) alter the way you think. Nothing else can do that. Teaching doesn’t necessarily do that. Teaching someone probably won’t change their opinion. They’ll just be more educated, but it doesn’t prevent anything. Time certainly doesn’t prevent anything. If so, then why not jail? What that nothing but a holding facility? Don’t confuse it with prison. But then, you can argue, “which one?” But is it not just a place where you sit there and wait for your “time to be up?”

Again, the only reason I am arguing “medical, medical, medical,” is because you are suggesting treatments that permanetely change the one someone thinks or acts. Medical is the only think that can do that.

(Please don’t counter with things like “hunger” food” “boom, disproven.” ‘Cause…that’s not even serious)

And if punishment is so bad, then why do we have natural punishing mechanisms? Such as guilt. That is a form of punishment and treatment. Sometimes it can make you suffer so much that it makes you not want to do it again. From that example, I am sure that you can name many more.

I don’t think that nature is on your side.
-Icy

Current Mood: cranky
Sunday, February 25th, 2007
9:54 pm
Response to Breath (Cont.)
(http://icyblackflame.livejournal.com/4223.html)

[quote]Again, putting words in my mouth. It is wrong whether the boy knows it or not.[/quote]
Again, opposite ends of the scale. Why would you consider it "wrong" if it was a disease? He couldn't help it! If a sniper went out and shot half the country, then why regaurd it as "wrong" since his disease made him do it? It's not "wrong" if we are not going to teach him that it is wrong, only "treat" him for doing it.

I'm just going by what you said earlier. A few posts earlier, not the one I am reponding to. Probably your first reply to me. About bombing half the country. With your logic, it is not "wrong" if he cannot help it. Murdering your girlfriend (again, another exmaple). It was not "wrong" since he has a condition. In case you don't agree, these are [i]your[/i] words.

Icy:
[quote]After all, it made you do it, didn't it?[/quote]
You:
[quote]Yes, but your conclusions don't logically follow.[/quote]
I wanna make that really big, but Kaz is gonna be a dick about it. *Cries*

Now, in case you missed it, notice how you said "yes." Notice how the question was, "After all, it [i]made[/i] him do it."

A lot of things you are saying do not add up. In the responsibility bit, you said,
[quote]Of course responsibility would be there[/i]

...But how so? Why would you make somebody take responsibilty for something that a disease made them do? I mean, assumedly, they were not in the "right" state of mind, correct? So, technically, what responsibilty would they have to take? Like I say, we could just play the blame game here.

Back to what I was saying. Right there you said that a disease (or whatever) could be the blame for an action (we were speaking in general terms). And yet you continue to argue that you would not automatically assume this. "Treatment. No Punishment" assumes that everyone can be treated. By default, you believe this if you believe that logic.

Period.
[quote]Lack of education, lack of social development, lack of brain development (as in a toddler), are all conditions, not dieseases, which can be "taught away," so to speak. Education is self-explanitory. Social development can be "taught" through experience. Brain development comes with time, so it isn't so much "taught away," but if I gather your meaning, then it is still relevant because just because it isn't a disease doesn't mean it can't be fixed and doesn't mean the kid deserves punishment.[/quote]
We've already esablished that I got the terms confused. Again, sorry.
[quote]No. Well, yes, but not in this context. In this context, "condition" is implicitly a negative trait.[/quote]
Gotcha.

[quote]Again, no in this context.[/quote]
Okay.
[quote]And that's the situation at hand.[/quote]
Note that I meant disease, but okies.
[quote]Obviously not, and I'm surprised you haven't found the problem with your own scenario.

#1 You like Skittles
#2 You have no money[/quote]
Really? I distinctively remembering saying,
[quote]To me, it sounds like I just have an interest in a certain junk food and perhaps a low-paying job.[/quote]
[quote]Based on those two things, you're assuming that my response is, "Condiotion!!!"

No, my response is "So what?" Why? Because you haven't stolen it yet. As soon as you add #3, there's a condition.

#3 You take the Skittles

In this case, there are a lot of things to look for to find the cause of the problem. The right thing to do is to ignore the Skittles until you have the proper means to get them.

If you don't do it the right way, you may not know that there even is a proper way to get Skittles.
The problem might be that you're 2 years old and have no concept of ownership. Solution? Just allow yourself enough time to mature.
You may have never been to a store before and didn't know that it wasn't free. Solution? Education.
You may have a disease that causes the urge to knowingly steal. Solution? Medical treatment.

The list goes on.[/quote]
1) Sorry. I thought that you would have assumed that I took the skittles. I should have made that clear.
2) Instead of making up all these bogus scenarios, why don't we get back to me being me at this age and amount of knowledge and take it from there.
3) What if there is no disease? What if I just wanted some skittles? I know that stealing is wrong. I am 16. What if I just stole it to have the skittles? What do we do then?
[quote]Skittles are food.[/quote]
Exactly my point.
[quote]I never asserted such to begin with.[/quote]
"BIG" picture, remember?
[quote]Like the right answer will just spontaneously generate because they are facing a corner? Time out isn't just punishment for kids. It's an escape for lazy parents. They don't want to spend the time and energy it takes to raise their children. They want the children to do all the work for them.[/quote]
True. I didn't mean "time out" as in "go sit in a corner" though. And how can they raise ther children if they have some disease? You can't "teach a disease" out of a child, as you pointed out. (Not exact words).
[quote]By definition, yes.[/quote]
>.> I don't agree. How am I disabled (mentally) or something if I just want some skittles? Actually, I may have stolen a candy bar from the store. I don't really remember doing so, but I may have. How am I disabled? I have to walk to the store, and, many times, I do not bring enough money. I don't feel liek walking a mile back to my house and a mile back to the store to buy a 99¢ paclk of skitles.

My purse is lookin' mighty handy...
[quote]I speak for the evidence.[/quote]
Sure.
[quote]The evidence for whom I speaketh.[/quote]
No, Dude. Take your head out of your ass for just a second, okay? I they say that they are fine, then, you saying that they are not does not mean that they are not. You don't know them. I do.

Sorry. I'll take their word over your "evidence" in this case.
[quote]Age doesn't come with automatic respect. If I were 50 and my 3 year old grandson called me a fucktard, what the hell do I care? It's just a name.[/quote]
I agree with the first glaf, not the second. If yourthree-year-old grandson just called you a fucktard, the I would question my son's(daughter's) parenting skills if I were you. That's just rediculous.

Every name is just a word. But words communicate how one feels. The word itself may not offend you, but the feelings and intentions behind it should.
[quote]Who gets hurt? Stick and stones.[/quote]
I think that only fools believe that. Verbal abuse isn't a bad thing for nothing. Manipulation isn't a bad thing for nothing. It's probably easier to break someone down with words than it is with pain. I mean...that's just making them do something because they know that they'll get hurt. They (most likely) don't believe anything. Words will get them to believe something, which is much more dangerous.
[quote]It's not bad because you haven't shown that it's bad. Hence: Not bad. I'm not saying it's good. It's just neutral.[/quote]
That's bogus. Was the Earth never round until we proved it? No. It was always round whether we believed it or not.

"Fact" only means that we have proof that it was true. It does not mean that it was never true until we proved it. It was always true. It just means that we now have reason to believe that it is true.

WTF?! Weren't you JUST saying that responsibility needs to be taken? Do you just not remember what you say or what?
[quote]If their is a perfectly logical reason for me to be called a fucktard, such as maybe it's my name, there's probably nothing wrong with you.
If I've offended you somehow, and you are using it to get back at me, that makes sense. It wouldn't work, but at least it has an explanation, and there's probably nothing wrong with you.
If you're trying to make me laugh, there's probably nothing wrong with you.
If you're just running around yelling FUCKTARD FUCKTARD FUCKTARD at the top of your lungs for no reason, you probably have Tourette's and could use some help. I wouldn't force you into treatment if you weren't causing me any problems though.[/quote]
What if they don't? Then what?

[quote]Might be, but not by itself.[/quote]
Okay.
[quote]I repeat:

Myself, Mark Twain, Abraham Lincoln, Clarence Darrow, Thomas Jefferson, Albert Einstein, Baruch Spinoza, Charles Darwin, John Locke, François-Marie Arouet de Voltaire, John Stuart Mill, Abe Fortas, Robert Gulack... Those are some pretty big names who could make sense of what I'm saying, but you can't apparently... Hmm...[/quote]
And this is proving...what? I could name 20 famous people and say that they agree. What proof is that? Listing names does nothing for ya, Bud. Sorry.

[i]You[/i] can't even make sense of what you are saying. How can you expect me to?
[quote]You're positing Free Will, a necessary component to justify punishment. Prove Free Will. The burden of proof is on YOU regardless of how many people have believed in it or for how long. The only thing that matters is the quality of the arguments, not tradition.[/quote]
1) Again, no. I never said that. That's YOU putting words into MY mouth. My "BIG picture" wasn't even that. I said punishment BECAUSE THEY DESERVE IT. That's it.
2) I never said to prove free will. I said to prove that treatment is better than punishment in all cases.

Read.
[quote]Free Will = Choice = Person is source of unethical behavior = Manipulate the person (by "person," I mean "John Smith", not "John Smith's disorder")

No Free Will = No choice = Condition is source of unethical behavior = Manipulate the condition[/quote]
Nope. John Smith = Decapitated Mary with a butter knife = take his ass to jail and punish him for what he's done.

I'd say that "conditions" are more of the reasons than "diseases." It seems as though a conidition can be causes by anything (I.e. Stress maybe?), which seems a lot more logical than assuming that everyone has some disease.
[quote]So to you world peace and happiness is not a goal worthy of putting forth a little effort to acheive just because you THINK it's impossible? Bear in mind you have no expertise in the likelihood of acheivement. You have little to know knowledge of the latest breakthroughs in global politics, agricultural technologies, or psychiatric progress. you have NO credentials to back up an assertion that it is "impossible," so it is reasonable to assume that it is possible. So get over this whole "It's too hard!" attitude. Putting a car in front of every house was thought to be impossible too.[/quote]
Yes I do. When one is only proposing ideas and no ways to make them happen. Only relying on someone else to do the work. Idea + no work =/= idea becoming reality.

Sorry.
[quote]And yet you can't point them out. You can only claim to have found the flaws in my logic, but you haven't backed it up. You've only made a few basic arguments for which I have already exposed flaws. You've just twisted my words in all sorts of directions, so whenever it was you THOUGHT you found a flaw in my logic, odds are you just didn't even know what the hell I was saying.[/quote]
Nah. I've pointed many things out time and time again. Then you retaliate by giving way out there examples that are almost embarrassing in reguards to being serious. You're just not acknowledging that some of my points are on. I think that many people reading this argument can agree with me here.

Of course I didn't know what the hell you were saying. Odds are that you didn't either.

Judging by the amunt of sense that some of your points made.
[quote]You have never made a dialogue to justify punishment. You've only attmepted dialogue to discredit lack of punishment. That might seem like the same thing, but it really isn't. Just explain to me how my dialogue makes sense to you. That's all I ask.[/quote]
1) You created a dialogue just to waste webspace.
2) It's an argument, nonetheless. Haha, let's see howlong it takes you to accept this, and that you never disproved my point.
3) Can't. It doesn't.
[quote]I already responded. Like, a while ago.[/quote]
I must have missed that. Because...I looked, and I only see a response to his second response.
[quote]For the exact reason you felt obligated to give an example to the contrary below in your "EDIT"


And yet you can't tell the difference between the two. Odd.[/qoute]
*Sigh* Are you just too stubborn to comprehend any of this? Sui and I both seem to think so.
-Icy

Current Mood: blah
9:44 pm
Response to Breath
(http://fusion-central.net/showthread.php?t=6680)

[quote=breathilizer;112994]As a child? You mean when you weren't able to understand concepts like ownership, violence, death? If a child commits an unethical act, like theft, it is likely NOT an illness but rather a lack of understanding. But that doesn't mean you take a frying pan to the side of his head.[/quote]

No. You assume that I was like...what? Six? Nope.

 

Lack of understanding =/= medical condition.

[quote]Speaking relatively to the existence of life on Earth, Free Will is the new idea. But that is really a moot point because the validity of an argument is not based on tradition. God is a traditional belief only disputed by a small minority, but the burden of proof still rests with theists to support their arguments for god. Likewise, you have the burden of proof here. You can't even define what Free Will is, what has it and what doesn't, where it's used and where it isn't, and yet you believe in it and think we should continue to allow our justice system to operate under its assumption.[/quote]

1) I never said that I wouldn't give proof.

2) I was saying that you need to give some proof also. So far, you've tossed around one random stat which had no source, which does not count.

3) Sure I can define what free will is. But, I just have to go with the dictionary. I'd say that it has a good enough definition.

4) Stop picking random crap to say. I never said that justice had anything to do with free will. And I say that free will exists in my opinion, in many cases, but not in others. As in, we have the option of choice. Is that not proof enough that free will exists? However, we cannot chose everything that happens to us, so, we do not have the option of free will for certain circumstances. I did chose to reply to your response, did I not? I am choosing the words I am typing, am I not? I finished writing the part after this, and then decided to add this little bit, did I not?

 

Are you reading my arguments? I've said that I think that free will exists to a point at the end of almost every post.

[quote]And given that there is NO evidence for Free Will, PLENTY of evidence for determinism, NO evidence to suggest that humans are fundamentally different from dirt, PLENTY of evidence to suggest we are fundamentally similar, I have the advantage here. You are in the hot seat. My ideas may be radical, but they are rational.[/quote]

1) We can choose to do things. That's proof enough.

2) No evidence to suggest that we are fundamentally different than dirt? Prove to me that dirt has free will or none. Prove to me that dirt can even think. I'd say that you have just as much evidence as I do.

3) Similar =/= same. We share many traits with many different bacteriums and viruses also.

4) As are mine. Don't just say you're right and not offer proof. Eck. Speaking of which, I gotta hit google. *Sighs* I hate searching for crap like this. It takes time >.> I'm not extremely patient.

[quote]http://countygovt.brevard.fl.us/saweb/prosecute/felrot.htm

[/quote]

Thanks.

[quote]Just the word "choose" implies Free Will, so I'm afraid you're not getting anywhere here.

 

What does it mean to "choose?" To act in one way as opposed to another, in a non-random manner, with the assumption that the other action was possible, right?

 

So, if I "chose" spaghetti over alfredo, prior to my decision both options were possible, right? Wrong. Whichever act I do, I was going to do it anyway, despite all the inner-deliberating I had to do to come to that action.

 

Suppose you think I'm wrong, and that the "inner-deliberating" is where Free Will takes place. We think about our options before we act one out, and that's what it means to "choose", right? But consider those thoughts. Did we choose to think them? If so (such as in the mental experiment you're probably doing in your head right now), what about the thoughts that led up to your "choice" to think of whatever thought you just had? Did you choose them? It goes on forever. It's called infinite regress.[/quote]

Yay! Learned a new phrase. I donno. How can you prove that it works that way? We can't just sit here and assume that you are correct with your amazing amount of infinite knowledge. Then again, we can't just assume that I am right with my amazing amount of infinite knowledge. What if it was based on whether or not you tried it before and decided that the taste was nasty?

 

Am I chosing to think about all of this? I would say yes. I chose to read your response. I expected to have to think about what you ad to say. I expected to be forced into it, but not because I didn't chose to read it, but [i]because[/i] I chose to read it.

 

How can we tell where thought came from? Is there a way to reseach [i]where[/i] a thought comes from? I'm not getting into philosophical junk. I'm actually asking you. Obviously you know a bit more about the human brain than I do. I'd assume.

[quote]Now suppose you think our thoughts come not from our brain but from a soul of some kind. How this would make a difference, I don't know, but I'll humor the idea. The "soul" bases its decisions on likes, dislikes, emotional states, memories, desires, goals, etc, just like your brain. Did your soul choose its likes, dislikes, emotional states, memories, desires, goals, etc? And if so, based on what? Again, infinite regress.[/quote]

Well, don't forget that that is hypothetical. Who knows what chose them. What if it was their memories, desires, goals, etc.? Don't those come from experience doing certain things? Like I said in my reply to Sui that apparently wasn't good enough for him, and I wil reply to that after I reply to all of your stuff, what if we were meant to do something, and that certain something was going to happen no matter what? But we are allowed to chose other things to do; we have that choice. But we will end up doing what we were meant to be doing no matter what? I used his college major switch as an example. Maybe, through free will, he was allowed to try certain things out. However, because he was not destined to do those things, he felt the need to switch into something else that was his "calling" or whatever? Something allowed him to try it, whether it be out of curiosity or what. But...doesn't the fact that he chose [i]wrongly[/i] say something? The fact that he was allowed to chose the wrong thing? Do you think that no free will would waste its time? I'm not saying that it wouldn't, of course, but I am just saying.

 

Again, is that why we have emotions like fear, courage, hate, love, happiness, sadness? To help us discover what we were supposed to do? To give us guidance? So we can be lead to our "destiny" through our likes and dislikes?

 

Don't get lost in these examples. I am agreeing with you mostly. I'm just saying that the fact that we have all these negative emotions seems strange to me.

[quote]This follows your last question, for the record.

 

Yes, dirt just "does", as you so elequently put it. And so do crystals, viruses, bacteria, crustaceans, fish, all the way up to humans. We're more complex. We are "self-aware." We're [relatively speaking] smart. We love, hate, laugh, cry... And so what? Working your way up from dirt to humans, you'll never come across some huge leap that defies everything in physics we've ever known, cheats all logic, and acts in a non-deterministic and non-random manner. You just won't, and the opbvious conclusion is that, despite our complexity, we operate by the same physical principles as a pile of dirt.[/quote]

That isn't exactly answering my question. Above, you propsed that thinking (or something) hypothetically comes from the soul (or the brain). How can anything without a soul or brain chose to di anything? Nothing you said up there disproves my point. In fact, it seems more like you are agreeing with it, according to your first sentence, at least.

[quote]Go by logic and evidence, not your instincts. Instinctually, we interpret the Earth as a flat plane. Centuries ago, you'd be calling me crazy for saying the Earth is round.[/quote]

I did use logic and evidence. Well, if common sense counts, but you didn't counter my argument at all, so I'm guessing that my logic was, in fact, good enough. That was te logic of the time. Right now, there is no logic that proves that dirt can think. So, in this case, I can be the uneducated fools telling you, the smart one, that dirt has no free will (in my opinion).

[quote]You used the word disease earlier. Now you're saying condition. They don't mean the same thing. You've been [unintentionally, I presume] twisting my words around for a while now, but I see you're confusing yourself, so please stop interchanging words like this. i mean exactly what I say because slight differences in definitions have huge consequences.[/quote]

 

[quote]A condition might be a lack of education or brain development, like in the cases of children. That doesn't mean they're diseased. I gave the Skittles kid a disease because you asked for a disease, not because I thought all theft is disease-related. You're the one that put those words in my mouth.[/quote]

Okay. Sorry. And, yes, it was an accident. In that case, I take back some of the stuff that I said. But you did say that it can either be a disease or condition, correct? Meaning that treatment requires nothing serious. But, when you apply "disease," that is a bit different. But how can you just assume that something is wrong with everyone. It might just be a "condition," not a "disease." How do you "treat" that? If someone stole something faily price-y, or did something fairly bad to benefit someone or something else, what would you do?

[quote]I wouldn't assume disease. I wouldn't assume anything except some X factor(s) which gave the person the urge to take something that did not belong to him.[/quote]

*Confused* Stealing is a theft though, which could require some jail time. And you're saying treatment, not punishment. What's the "treatment" for something with no medical factors?

[quote]You're the one making it confusing by switching my words around. Read my words.[/quote]

That's not what I meant, but okay and sorry =)

[quote]People rob banks even with punishments, so what's your point? My point is that those that once they get caught, they'll never be able to commit the crime again, yet they'd still be able to continue their lives. If you punish them, they'll just do their time and commit the crime again.[/quote]

My point was that, [i]because[/i] there is a punishment, one could assume that that thought alone could discourage some people from not doing a certain something. Sometimes I want to steal stuff from stores, but the fact that I could get in trouble stops me. Without the threat of punishment, what is discouraging one form taking something, is all I am trying to get across here.

 

How do we make them not do it again? Again, not arguing. Just yearning for some knowledge here.

[quote]Look at marijuana. People smoke it even though they could go to jail. Guess what happens when you take away the laws against marijuana? *gasp!* Nothing! Those who didn't want to smoke it didn't decide just because of the laws. They just didn't want to do it. Likewise, jail time isn't what keeps people from robbing banks. People who don't want to rob banks won't. Those who do will.[/quote]

I think that marijuana is in a different league here. You can't compair that with something like killing someone. The marijuana law could be taken away like that (insert snap sound here) and it wouldn't affect too many people. Take away the, "no killing people" law, and [i]that[/i] would be cause for alarm.

 

I mean. You just can't compare smoking pot with these other things. You're saying that every person who robs a bank doesn't take into consideration that they could get caught, fined, jailed, etc? Of course, marijuana is the same deal in that thought, but it is smaller. You could blame many (not all; maybe not even most, just to be fair to your argument) cases on peer pressure, and then addition cases on addiction or the chemical rendering of the brain because of the pot. The law may or may not come into mind. It's simple to just take a joint and take a puff. Robbing a bank doesn't come that easilly. I'm fairly certain that one doesn't just wake up, say, "I'm going to go rob a bank," and then just do it.

 

Then, out of this, I see your point. But that only works with smaller things and (subjective) stupid laws that don't need to be laws. Take bigger laws that would create absolute chaos if taken out. It just doesn't work out so easilly.

[quote]See above.[/quote]

It's still not doing the question any justice, in my opinion.

[quote]In addition, think of the thrill-seekers who steal BECAUSE of the risk of punishment![/quote]

[i]They[/i] might require "treatment." The again, preference. I donno. If they are killing for the "thrill," then...that doesn't count here. Wouldn't you agree that that would require some type of "help"? I would say treat them first and then punish for the crime.

 

I'm sorry that my mind is so set on this punishment thing, but, clearly our minds work differently. You are hellbent on helping the criminal, which means that you'd be great working for the governemnt. I'm thinking about the victim. I'm just thinking about this one girl named Sara (sahr-ruh, not sehr-rah) that I knew (she's not dead or anything. We weren't really friends, but she moved a while ago, so). Her uncle raped and sodomized her since she was young, and the police found out. Eh, I can't get into much mumbo jumbo 'cause I don't know. It was on the news a while ago. He didn't even do time. No fine. They sentenced him to "treatment" and something else. I really felt sorry for her because that almost seemed insulting. I'm thinking of all that he did to her. I would be angry if someone did all that to me for all that time, and barely got punished. I don't care what his "disease" or "condition" is. He did that to her, so I just think that he should pay. In your world, "treating" him and not even considering the crime just isn't good enough for me. I can say that I am glad that it won't happen in my lifetime (hopefully). I may have to commit suicide if that were to happen.

 

But you should feel glad. The jailtime and fines for pedophiles and criminals is apparently going down (some places). That case with that one boy...a few weeks in jail with a 22 dollar fine for kidnapping him for all that time and all that shit? He did get "treatment" (even tho' he went out and striked some girl after.) Your dream world is coming into reality, my friend. Be happy. (Damn Fox and CNN with their stories that I can't remember worth a dern).

[quote]What's to stop you now? Do it. So what, you might get caught. Big deal. You'll get another chance. Is it really because you don't want to be punished by law-enforcement? Sociologists would attribute cooperative (moral/selfless) behavior to "Tit-for-Tat", the "Golden Rule", or other theories regarding the evolution of altruistic behavior. To assume that all people are immoral and only the law keeps them in check is unreasonable.[/quote]

Now you're switching my words. I said "some." No clue what "tit-for-tat" is, but I know the golden rule. What does that have to do with stealing skittles? And are you saying that the law does absolutely nothing here? I would say that [i]that[/i] is unreasonable. I would like to assume that it creates fear in some individuals and does manage to discourage them from certain activities. "The Golden Rule" and (assumedly) "Tit-for-tat" would not work if they had some "disease," correct? I don't think that they would work if there was no free will. If it was "destined" to happen, then one could assume that nothing, especially not "teaching" one something could change that, concur?

[quote]Absolutely agreed.

 

I agree with this (minus use of the word "excuse"). Education is a good thing. For the same reason, it would be wise to educate children about Tourette's Syndrome so that a child who suffers from the syndrome might be able to help doctors diagnose him.

 

If a kid learns about Tourette's and tries to fake the disorder knowing that he wouldn't get in trouble, he might fool the teacher, but he wouldn't fool the doctor. The doctor would see that compulsive yelling isn't the problem. The real problem is that the kid has an urge to act out, deceive, lie, etc. A diagnosis could be made and it could be treated.[/quote]

Taking it to the extreme again. How much extra schooling would that require? And, again, that isn't really good enough. You're saying that every bad thing is caused by a "disease," therefore, the child could do something bad, preach one thing, go to the doctor, be wrong, and it could be another. In a perfect world. What if there is no disease? Are you dodging this question? What if they are just yelling and acting out to be yelling and acting out? I mean, not because of anything? Maybe obnosciousness? Children do that sometimes, yes?

 

They do provide classes to learn about some of these (of course, there are too many to cover. To satify your preference, we'd need to provide another five or so years of school specifically for that).

 

Maybe the kid can help the doctor, yes.

[quote]Justified? No. Explained? Yes.[/quote]

Difference?

[quote]Of course responsibility would be there. A robot doesn't have Free Will, and its actions could be "blamed" on its programming, but you'd still hold the robot responsible for any acts commited against you. Now, would you rather destroy the robot, store it somewhere safe then release it later, or just reprogram it so that it won't try to kill you anymore and then let it go back to what it was doing beforehand?[/quote]

You've been watching too much Family Guy. That makes almost as much sense as that one episode where Peter invites his boss over for dinner. Brian starts choking on a dinner roll, so Peter does the Heim...whoever you spell it maneuver on him. The roll comes out, but directly flies across the table into Peter's boss's mouth. He dies. So later on the news, the reporter says that the family is not in trouble, but the dinner roll has been taken into custody.

 

Why would you blame the [i]robot[/i]? It didn't program itself. The human is responsible for the robot's actions because (s)he "told" it to do so. Therefore, the human should get blamed and taken to jail (assumedly; depending on the actions taken), not the robot. Or, perhaps the robot was a clever scapegoat of his because he knew that humans would be so stupid as to blame the robot instead of the programmer.

[quote]Yes, but your conclusions don't logically follow.[/quote]

How so? And neither do yours.

[quote]Why me? You're the one that needs to prove Free Will before we can even consider anything drastically different from my conclusions which do not assume Free Will.[/quote]

Maybe you just need to accept the fact that we can choose certain things and we cannot choose others. I am choosing to type this. I am choosing to sit here instead of doing something else. I am choosing to talk to Sui online right now. I am choosing to watch America's Next Top Model reruns on VH1 right now. Is that all not my free will? My choice to do so? Your conclusions do not disprove free will, but rather provide evidence that we are not given the option of choice for many circumstances.

[quote]No. Once again, twisting my words. First, I said any number of factors could result in theft. My initial example was the disease Kleptomania. My second was the kid didn't know that stealing was wrong. For both examples, you twisted my words to imply that I assume EVERY thief has a disease and then that EVERY thief doesn't know any better. Just read what I'm saying and stop putting words in my mouth. Just stop.

 

The only thing I'm assuming is that you have the reading comprehension skills of 4th grade or higher. However, I'm doubting my assumptions.[/quote]

My reading and comprehension skills are fine. You, howver, have the comprehension and memory of a second grader. You just don't seem to be getting "the big picture."

 

I was implying your overall message, not just what you had said there. You said no punishment at all. Treatment. For everything. Which is implying that, for every bad thing, a disease was the cause. That's it. That's all you can say right now. That's your big picture. You keep switching you ideas around, but you cannot! You said that you would not automatically assume that someone had some disease (or condition or whatever. The point is still the same), and yet you argue no punishment. Treatment.

 

You cannot treat nothing.

 

There has to be something in order to treat it, no?

 

Here. Just read this convo I had with Sui.

 

[quote][15:59] Icyblackflame1: He doesn't realize that he believes two completely opposite things at the same time
[16:00] vauxinhibition:  How so?
[16:00] Icyblackflame1: Okay
[16:00] Icyblackflame1: He believes no punishment. Treatment only, correct?
[16:01] vauxinhibition:  Supposedly
[16:01] Icyblackflame1: Which implies that, for every wrong-doing, a "disease" is the cause, correct?
[16:01] Icyblackflame1: Since there is treatment for everything, supposedly
[16:01] vauxinhibition:  YEah
[16:02] Icyblackflame1: Well, did he not say over and over that he would not automatically assume that someone just had some disease?
[16:02] vauxinhibition:  Hm from what I saw yea
[16:03] Icyblackflame1: This was a response from him that proves my point:
[16:03] Icyblackflame1: No. Once again, twisting my words. First, I said any number of factors could result in theft. My initial example was the disease Kleptomania. My second was the kid didn't know that stealing was wrong. For both examples, you twisted my words to imply that I assume EVERY thief has a disease and then that EVERY thief doesn't know any better. Just read what I'm saying and stop putting words in my mouth. Just stop.
 
 The only thing I'm assuming is that you have the reading comprehension skills of 4th grade or higher. However, I'm doubting my assumptions.
 
[16:03] Icyblackflame1: Yet the BIG picture was that, assumedly, yes, everyone has a disease since it can be treated
[16:03] Icyblackflame1: Now he is saying that other factors come into mind
[16:04] Icyblackflame1: I never twisted his words
[16:04] Icyblackflame1: I'm going by what he said before
[16:04] Icyblackflame1: You can't assume that everyhing is caused by a treatable consition and not assume that something was caused by a condition at the same time, correct?
[16:04] Icyblackflame1: disease***
[16:05] vauxinhibition:  Yup
[16:05] Icyblackflame1: So he believes two different things and does not recognize it
[16:05] vauxinhibition:  Why not say that?
[16:05] Icyblackflame1: Which is making this terribly hard to argue because he refuses to acknowledge this
[16:05] vauxinhibition:  Ack hey I've goyta run I'll be back
[16:05] Icyblackflame1: I am[/quote]

Eck.
-Icy



Current Mood: crappy
Saturday, July 15th, 2006
8:38 pm
Here....
Hey you guys! Hmn, turns out, I like RPing, and I want to find buddies to RP with. How good am I? Judge for yourself! I put a little snippet of an RP I did with two people. Like what you see? Add me and let's RP!

I'm only interested in FMA at the moment. I really like being Ed, just so ya know. And since this is an Envy/Ed thing, I would appreciate it if those were the main characters, unless you're interested in the both of us (or more people, whatever) playing multiple roles. No skin off my bones.

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Current Mood: Whatever
Tuesday, June 6th, 2006
6:43 pm
Test!
Hey guys! I'm back again!
Anyway, I took some screenshots and added some Envy/Ed captions to them. Can you look at them and tell me if I should make some more? Or what you didn't like about them? Be honest, heh.

Just on a note, there is one fanmade pic, although I do not know who the author is. So I don't get in trouble -- I did not make any of these pictures...I just added captions to them. (that reminds me of "cations." ("cat-ions" not "k-tions") Damn Chemistry

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Current Mood: cheerful
Wednesday, April 12th, 2006
7:44 pm
The Fate of It All
The Fate of It All (Originally entitled, "Pain.")
By: Icyblackflame

Disclaimer: I don’t own Fullmetal Alchemist; I’m not intelligent enough. In fact, I can’t even remember the person’s name who invented it. Big deal.

Author’s Notes: This is a dark fic - the characters are probably out of character (maybe not Envy ‘cause we know he hates Ed a lot), but I don’t think Ed would say things as rude as I’m making him say. Again: big deal. This has adult situations. What, exactly? I forgot. I guess you just gotta read to see.

As you can tell, I’m not in the best of moods, which is good because I can write excellent torture fics. Wow, there. I’m guessing you can assume there’s torture. Yup. Okay, whatever. Read.


Summary: Envy and Ed hated each other. One always wanted the other to scream. To hurt. To ache. To bleed. To burn. To cry. One always wanted the other to die. But when fate causes a strange mishap of events to occur, one may very well find the themselves needing the company of the other as a basic mean for survival.



*~~*~~*~~*.......*~~*~~*~~*



Envy smirked at Ed’s expression; it was absolutely delicious! The one person he knew that could match his expressions perfectly was surprisingly Edward Elric.

Envy continued to inch his way toward the deliberant blonde, drowning in the pure bliss he was feeling as he hungrily swallowed the poison the alchemist was electing.

“Do you know what rape is, baka-san?”

Ed shriveled his nose in disgust at the approaching predator. A completely worthless bag of filth. He took a step back and curved his lips upward to match Envy’s putrid smirk. “What a beaver did to your mother in order to create you?” He glanced up slightly, imitating a thinking gesture, and then locked their gazes once again.

Envy grimaced at the remark and ceased his pace, his mocking smirk still intact. “Well, aren’t you the comedian?” He ginned. “In my opinion, the only thing worth laughing at is your less-than-meaningless existence. A complete waste of flesh; a waste of time; a waste of space. A waste of life, even.”

Edward snarled at this. “At least I’m serving a purpose while I’m alive, which you failed to do in life, and, pathetically, in death. If you asked me, you are the very definition of disreputable and repugnance.” He inwardly smirked at Envy’s expression. The homunculus had resumed his journey toward the blonde mid-sentence, and scowled.

“Why, thank-you, baka-san. I would have never expected such kind words from a leech like you.” Envy slowed his steps as he approached the alchemist. “I’ve thought about it and decided there was one thing funny about your act.” His smirk was back in place again, betraying nothing, but mocking absolutely everything. “The look on your face when I take away everything you wish you had, everything you thought you had, everything you almost have, and everything you’ll never have...” Envy was in right in front of Edward. He narrowed his eyes and lowered himself so that their gazes could meet. The amount of venom dripping from his eyes alone paralyzed Ed completely.

“...Again.”

*~~*.......*~~*


Ed scoffed and curved his lips into a frown. He knew this was coming, and he hadn’t tried to stop it. Well, what would it have done, anyway? Envy does what he wants. Envy gets what he wants.

...And Envy wanted Ed to thrive and thrash in pain, bleeding and drinking the blood he bled, choking on his own existence; drowning in his very essence.

Ed felt a searing pain as he found himself flying backward. His back spasmed as it connected with the wall with brute force, embezzling the last of his breath from him. Gasping, he struggled to stand and looked up, only to see Envy running toward him with a malicious look devouring his face.

“You’d better swallow that useless pride, Elric, because if you don’t, I’ll take it from you, grind it up, and beat it back into your vain body,” Envy laughed. “Although it won’t be so handy to you anymore. But then again, what would an imp like you know about being useful?” He had made his way back to Edward by now, and was about to punch him before his feet were knocked from under him. He fell hard onto the ground.

Edward stood up, his body throbbing and conflicting with every movement he attempted. He made it to his feet and held onto the wall for support. Everything was spinning; he could barely stand on his own. He nearly missed what Envy had stated, but he’d heard it, and he smirked with what little energy his body unwillingly offered.

“As if a squalid nothing like you could even define ‘useful.’” Ed noticed Envy struggling up and looking at him with that same hateful glare. “That’s right. You are nothing. Dead. Defiled. Worthless. Damn it, Envy, at least I’m alive, but I’m sure a swine like you couldn’t possibly remember what that’s like, can you? You can’t possibly remember what it’s like to be re-” Ed’s face slammed into the wall violently. Envy had gotten up and made his way over to Ed without his knowing it.

Envy fought to catch his breath. He was seeing red, and breathing fire. How dare he. How dare that bastard say that to me...

Envy was about to strike when he heard Edward continue. His vision was getting blurry and his blood was boiling. He couldn’t fight like this...he couldn’t even think like this. How was it that whenever he thought of that Elric kid, he wanted to hurt something? Kill something? Destroy anything? Hurt him. Kill him. Destroy him. Envy smirked. No, destroy was not a strong enough word for what he wanted to do to the alchemist. He couldn’t even describe what he wanted to do to Ed, but he’d just have to improvise. He wanted this kid dead now.

Through his thoughts, he’d completely missed what Edward had said.

Ed glared at him with a perplexed and untamed look on his face. “Did you hear me?” He was holding onto the wall for support. Envy could tell he wasn’t going to hold up very long. Ed clapped his hands together and transmuted his automail arm into the metal sword he preferred using and lashed out at Envy with renewed, yet slowed speed. “Answer me, you bastard!” He yelled.

Envy nearly laughed at the teen’s movements. Was he kidding? He couldn’t believe that Ed actually found that thing even vaguely threatening. He held Ed off with a round-house kick, throwing Ed back a few feet. He then attempted a back flip, but was knocked back down in mid-air. How the hell did he get so damn fast?

This didn’t exactly knock off Envy’s train of thought. He spun his legs forward and lashed out, returning the favor by knocking Ed’s feet right from under him. He soon discovered that he’d miscalculated his movement as Ed landed right on top of him, his feet kicking his face into the ground.

He grasped his head and pushed Ed off him, realizing that his strength was leaving him. Groaning, he stood up, and spat out blood. The pain had just now hit him...he’d bit his tongue very deeply. Damn it.

Waves and waves of blood began pouring down his throat, suffocating him. He coughed violently at this. He wanted the Elric boy dead now, but his strength was near pathetic. Had the alchemist hit him more than recognized? Envy was about to smirk when he fell to the floor.

Edward was throwing punches as hard as he could now. He, too, realized that both their strength was not the best at the moment. He could see that Envy was too lost in his thoughts, and took the opportunity. He’d struck his enemy with a sloppy double-round house kick, but he hadn’t noticed his opponent’s mouth full of blood, which had escaped through his mouth to his face.

He quickly scraped his right hand over his face to wipe away the rancid liquid. As he did this, he noticed that it was darker and colder than it should have been. Was this due to his being a homunculus, or something else? Ed hid this fact in the back of his mind as he noticed Envy making his way up and prepared himself for the worst.

To his dismay, a bright blue light surrounded Envy’s form, transforming his body into something new. Or worse yet, he may have just been healing his body. Edward couldn’t let that happen. Before the light had completely emasculated, he lashed out and pushed him backward.

To his surprise, he, too, was engulfed in a light of his own, but it was pink. That’s when he noticed Envy’s light fusing with his, turning it into a light purple, then surrounding himself with the same color.

Ed’s body hurt like hell...and it felt as if it were burning, too. He couldn’t tell what was happening to it, but he wanted it to stop right away. The light was vastly closing them in, leaving the air tighter and tighter. When it weakened, he felt...different. What had happened?

Envy opened his eyes to find himself thrown across the floor, opposite side of Edward. He looked at his right hand and noticed the blood. It was different. It was warm and bright red. Then he noticed the glass surrounding himself, and breathed out.

He looked around for Ed, or at least he tried to when he realized his vision was very blurry; he couldn’t make out anything. No matter. He could just catch his scent-

Wait. Where was his scent? He couldn’t smell anything but blood. In fact, now that he was fully awake, he couldn’t see anything but blood. He couldn’t feel anything but blood. Was he still in the same place?

He heard noise shuffling to his right and immediately jumped up to the offending noise, but found himself right back down on the floor. Granted, he had lost a great deal of energy, but he hadn’t remembered losing this much power.

“Don’t worry,” He heard, “I can’t get up right now, so you can just stay there, though it seems as though your body planned on doing that-” Ed froze. Who was that sitting there? It couldn’t have been Envy.

He tried to stand once again, but found he couldn’t, as he’d predicted. But what exactly was going on? His senses were...different. Stronger. He could see much better than he ever could, and he noticed a ringing in his ears. Upon further observation, he found that it was the other’s breathing that he heard. And now that he was thinking about it, he hadn’t been looking at the other’s movements when he’d known they were trying to get up. He’d sensed them. Heard them. Smelled them.

He heard a raffling noise, and looked toward the other’s direction and found he was staring at him too. Examining further, he concluded that the being did look like Envy, but he looked...

“Who are you?” Envy asked the other.

Ed looked confused. That definitely sounded like Envy...

“What do you mean who am I? Who do I look like?”

Envy’s face was baffled. “I don’t know. You sound like the Shrimp, but you don’t look like him.”

Ed blinked. How could he not look like himself? He still was himself. He snarled slightly and attempted to stand up. That’s when he noticed the complete...lack of pain he was in. This was beyond him. He was about to walk to the other when he slipped on the blood swished around him and bucked forward. He saw nothing but black and felt something on his face. Somehow his hair had gotten out of its usual tie and was scattered around his face. He scoffed and moved it away from his face with his right hand and-

His right hand? Ed looked down and observed his hands, and stared with a disbelieving glance. He was staring at two hands. Two flesh hands. Then he took noticed of the black strands in his hand and pulled subconsciously.

That was his hair. What was going on? Surveying himself further, he noticed that he was wearing something different, and his legs were longer. He felt a chill run down from his spine to his waist, and-

Wait...Legs? Two legs? Two flesh legs? Two-

“Are you done yet? I already pointed out that you don’t look like yourself. At any rate, you look like an idiot doing that. I’m guessing you still are that crappy-ass bastard. What the hell did you do, anyway?”

Ed looked up. “I don’t know. I ran into you while you were shifting while my sword was transmutating itself back to my arm. It might have just been an alchemic reaction.” He narrowed his eyes. “Why do you care, anyway? It obviously didn’t affect you at all. You still transformed.”

Envy raised his eyebrows. “What are you talking about, baka-san?” Envy smirked. “I lost control of my shift when you so stupidly bumped into me. I didn’t transform.”

Ed eyed Envy with the same state of bewilderment. “Maybe your brain isn’t functioning as well as it should be at the moment, which, I wouldn’t be surprised, seeing as it never does anyway...but you did change. You don’t look like yourself.”

This was getting old. Very old. And it had just started. The homunculus eyed Edward with a tired look in his eyes. “I know you’re a moron...but this isn’t-”

That’s all the Alchemist heard before the flames were turned up.

Ed returned Envy’s glare with one full of as much odium as he could muster. The way he’d said that...he’d punctuated every word down slowly and precisely down to the last syllable, treating Ed as if he were stupid. Well, clearly the delusional homunculus was going out of his way to be stupid this time. Exceptionally stupid. Amazingly stupid. Ed sighed. He wasn’t up for this today.

“Listen to me, Shithead.” Ed closed his eyes and breathed out. His temper was beginning to rise; he could feel his blood simmering. “I don’t know what kind of game you’re trying to play here, and frankly, it’s not funny one bit. But I do know that you do not look like the hideous, gender-confused troll you, for some reason, prefer to look like. Now maybe the four-hundred years you’ve moronically chosen to silence your brain cells are taking effect on the rest of your repulsive body. In fact, I’m sure they are. But I, however, am perfectly fine. I know exactly what I am looking at, you bastard. Instead of observing me like a hawk, why don’t you pick your damn self up and take a peak at your reflection.”

Envy snarled and looked down. He couldn’t exactly tell what he looked like from all the shattered glass strewn about everywhere, and growled. With his left hand, he reached out for the massive amount of glass before him, and

Envy glared at Ed – this was getting very tiring. “Listen up, shrimp,” he said hoarsely while reattempting to stand, which he was gradually accomplishing. “I know you have trouble comprehending sentences with more than three words in them, but I’ll make this as short as I can: I...did...not...shift, understand?” Envy breathed out shallowly before continuing. “Now, I know you’re a half wit...and that’s on a good day, but this shouldn’t be too hard to understand. Even for a dimwit like you.” He punctuated his words slowly again...almost in a vicious manner. Ed was pushing him over the edge, and once he was off, there was no going back.

Envy found himself in terrible pain as he finally made his way into a standing position, and also held onto the wall for support. He looked back at Edward to be faced with an awkward glare. “So you didn’t change?” he heard, and in nodded in response.

“No. I-” He paused and stared at the glass scattered about his feet. Now that he was standing, he could see his reflection much more clearly.

The man looking back at him had long, black hair, a thin, yet muscular frame, and piercing sapphire eyes. His left ear, he also observed, held a tiny, yet very noticeable silver earring hiding behind his slightly un-kept hair. Was he hallucinating? He knew he hadn’t transformed – he would have felt it if he had.

But then....what had he done?

“I-I feel...different,” he stated more to himself than to Edward.

“So do I,” he heard, but ignored. “What the hell happened?” He reached for his right arm and froze. What was that...feeling? He was...he was warm. But how was that possible? He was dead. Dead people had no warmth whatsoever.

While Envy took his sweet time observing himself, Ed decided to do the same to his self. He trailed his vision over his flesh limbs – all four of them. This was certainly a new and ancient feeling.

He took his left arm and traced his right, memorizing every muscle he felt. He surveyed all the creases, all the shades, all the scars – anything he could drown in the overpowering sensation of having two arms. Together. On his body...

His body.

This wasn’t his body, he realized. This was some guy’s who...barely felt alive. He felt his cold arm again...there was almost no pulse. This body didn’t feel...like a body at all.

Something suddenly struck him. He looked at his arms again and began to observe the blood veins...or tried to, at least. Then it hit him. He had no blood veins he could see. In fact, his arms were very pale and...freezing, although he, himself, felt nothing.

He glanced over his shoulder to find Envy staring at him with a cold sweat. What had happened to the both of them?

“-Going on?”

Ed now focused all of his attention on Envy, whom he hadn’t even realized was speaking, even though he was staring right at him. “What?”

Envy cast him an aggravated glance. “I said, ‘What do we do now? Tell me whatcha think’s going on.’”

Ed snorted. “You want to hear what I have to say?”

Envy smirked. “Not really, shorty. I just want to know what the hell’s going on. You had to mess things up, didn’t you?”

Ed glared at Envy. “How did I mess things up? For your information, I was fine until you had to come and bother me!”

“Really now? Well if I recall correctly, you started this fight, and you ran into me while shifting, attempting to do alchemy. What were you thinking? Or were you thinking at all?”

Ed looked down and glared at his feet. How the hell was he supposed to know it’d affect anything? To be truthful, he hadn’t even meant to run into Envy – he’d...stupidly...tripped over his feet and collided with him. But still...

“Whatever, Envy. Just whatever. But arguing won’t help us solve this problem, now will it? We need to figure out what we are – who we are, and where are body’s really are.”

Envy sighed tiredly in Edward’s direction. “You really don’t have a good memory, do you, Baka-san? I am a shape-shifter; I don’t need your help.

Ed scoffed. How could he have forgotten that? He sighed.

“Then why don’t you just change back and leave me be.”

Envy peered into the alchemist’s eyes. “Gladly.” He readied and wiled himself to shift while bracing himself, also. Granted, his abilities were amazing, but at a cost that no other being knew other than himself. Or Dante, possibly. But it hurt...very badly to shift. But each and every time proved well worth it.

He focused in his mind on the image he preferred to use. The “troll,” as Edward so politely suggested. Envy scoffed. He didn’t need to think about the Shrimp right now.

Everything about that person flooded his brain – his appearance, his scent, his state of dress, his personality, his voice; everything he needed to know to change into him.


Heh...willpower is so much stronger than humans seem to think it is.


With all the information he needed gathered into a tiny space in his mind, it felt himself explode inside, the painful process of transforming making itself known once more.

He felt the muscles of this person changing and molding into a thinner frame, he felt his bones literally ripping inside him. He felt everything down to the cells in his body shifting into “himself.”

Oh yes, this hurt. But at least it was almost over.

...Or was it? He opened his eyes to find Edward staring at him intensely with a very bewildered appearance consuming his face.

“If you’re done acting like n idiot, could you please just change and leave me the hell alone?”

Envy glared at Ed, but this time with a hint of confusion.

“Shut the fuck up, pipsqueak. I’m tired right now, so I’ll just do it in a little while. Don’t get on my nerves until then, and I may even decide not to kill you...today.”

Ed smirked. He knew exactly what Envy meant by that. ‘I’m too weak right now, but I’ll change back when I’m not such a scrawny pig.’ His smirk turned into a rather crazed grin.

“Soot yourself, Envy,” he said as he watched the other sit down and close his eyes.

He opted to do the same, although he felt completely fine. Well, other than not knowing what the hell was wrong with him. But that could wait for a little while.




Right now, he had other things to think about.



*~~*~~*~~*.......*~~*~~*~~*



Okay...there’s chap one. Damn! I wanted to make it at least ten pages...which is still kind of short, in my opinion, but...this is barely nine. Oh well – I almost made it, heh. I think I would have talked myself dry if I kept on going, though. Well, there’s no-where to go from there. Well, at least with this chap. But there are plenty more!

Now....I’m gonna try my hardest to get this story completed...and this will be my first one...ever, pretty much (that I’ve finished)...but I need your help and encouragement. Please review and tell me what you think! (Gives a brownie and a hug to all of you!...except Alex....He just wants the brownies @_@)

Remember....flames are not allowed, but feel free to give me a negative review (with helpful criticism, of course!)

Random joke of the chapter:

Jack and Jill went up a hill to fetch some Marijuana
Jack got high, unzipped his fly, and said, “Jill do you wanna?”
Jill said “Yes,” flipped up her dress, and then they had some fun
...But silly Jill forgot her pill and now they have a son!!
...Named George

-I know there are different versions of this ^^-

Take care!


PS- You may want to read this on ff.net instead

Current Mood: accomplished
Friday, March 3rd, 2006
10:54 am
Notice....
Okay...not that anyone is reading this as far as I can tell, but I kinda....got in trouble last weekend and I can't post my story as quickly as I thought. In fact, I can only really type whilst in school during lunch (Yes I skip that 'cause I have more important things to do. But hey...don't be like that...I go hme in two hours, so I can eat then ^^). Anyway, just thought I'd let you know that maybe I can get it posted sometime during this month.

Current Mood: okay
Wednesday, March 1st, 2006
10:43 am
Books I've Recently Read...
Heya!
Okay...first..I can't believe I've written so much already! I NEVER keep track of anything...and I'm almost updating everyday. Yay! Anyway, I want to suggest a few books to you that I thought were phenomenal.

1) "The Giver" by: Lois Lowry
Summary: N/A (i will type it when I find it
Why: This book is so creative and amazing...and since its fantasy, I'm suprised that I liked it at all. I can't describe it much...you'll just have to take my word for it and read it ^^
2) "The Bread Giver" by: Lois Lowry
Summay: N/A
Why: Hmn...actually, I haven't read this yet, but since this is the sequel, I'd recommend it anyway. I would get it, but our school library can't afford many books over 10¢ a piece, but I'll try the public library soon.
“A Child Called :It” : One Child’s Courage To Survive” by: David Pelzer
Summary: (Bell’s about to ring, so I’ll type it later…He has some VERY long-ass summaries, lol.)



“The Lost Boy” by: David Pelzer
Summary:
“Imagine a young boy who has never had a home. His only possessions are his old, torn clothes he carries in a paper bag. His only world is isolation and fear. Although this young boy has been rescued from his alcoholic mother, the real hurt is just beginning -- he has no place to call home.
This is David Pelzer’s long awaited sequel to A Child Called “It.” Answers will be exposed and new adventures revealed in this compelling story of his life as an adolescent.
Now considered an F-Child --A foster child-- young David experiences the instability of moving in and out of five different homes. Those who feel that all foster children are trouble --and not worthy of being loved just because they are not a part of a real family—resent his presence and force him to suffer shame. Tears and laughter, devastation and hope, all create the journey of this little lost boy who desperately searches for the love of a family.
Though many in society ridicule the foster-care system and society-service fields, Dave Pelzer is a living testament to the necessity of their existence. Whether you are a fan of the author or picking up his work for the first time, The Lost Boy is a sequel that will move you and stand alone as shining inspiration to all.”
Note: This is the sequel to “A Child Called ‘It’”

Why: Geez, after that, must I really explain why to read this book?

“Hex” by: Rhiannon Lassiter
Summary:
London. The 24th Century. The CPS, a secret government agency, is on a mission to seek and destroy the Hex, human mutants with supercomputer minds. They are young. They look like you or me. The must never be allowed to grow up…

But the CPS hasn’t discovered Raven. Soon, they will feel her power, know her rage as she and her brother, Wraith, set out to discover what happened to their long-lost sister, Rachel. Is she dead or alive? Or has she met fate worse than extinction?

There is only one way to find out. Raven must use her Hex powers to crack the top-secret security of the CPS. Then she must enter the place that promises certain death.
Why: This book is very intresting…and I like it because everything isn’t “perfect” – it doesn’t always go the way the characters want it too. And the characters don’t seem like loopy, made-up little freak-things that could never exist. Well, the Hex may never exist, but it seems real enough. You know….easier to believe than “Polka-dot monkey people from Mars who escaped from the Weird Things zoo.” Its really good. The plot is unlike anything else I’ve ever read…well, besides the fact that I don’t normally read Fantasy, lol. This book is courtesy of Lyssa-Chan – one of my cool friends at my school. THANKS ALYSSA! AND YOU’D BETTER GIMMIE SOME MORE COMPLETELY AWESOMELICIOUSFUL BOOKS TO READ OR YOU WILL DIE!
Note: This is part a series. As far as I know, “Hex: Shadows,” and “Hex: Ghosts” follow this book. Enjoy ^^.

-Bells's gonna ring in two minutes -yes, I skipped class-, so I will finish this when I get home ^^-

Current Mood: aggravated
Friday, February 24th, 2006
10:36 am
100 Ways To....
Heya!
You know…I’m starting to wonder why I only post whilst at school….
Anyway, I found a whole bunch of “100 Ways To…” etc sites, and I figured I’d share ‘em with ya!!

First one: 100 Ways To Annoy People At A Theme Park

1. Make out with the person behind you in line.
2. Start screaming "We're all gonna die!!!" during the ride.
3. Go into the younger kids section and play in the ball pen until security threatens to kick you out.
4. Start talking about the last time you got stuck upside-down on this ride, loud enough so the 9 year-old kid sitting next to you (its his first time) can hear ya.
5. Run. Just run.
6. Extend your arm out as the train goes in and out of the station so the ride operator presses the emergency button and stops the roller coaster.
7. Start talking about shaving your butt in line while everyone around you is silent.
8. Pretend to die so your friend pretends to freak out and cry.
9. Sing, "I know a song that gets on everybody's neves" the WHOLE ride.
10. Begin to waltz to the happy music in the middle of the path.
11. Everytime you pass a chain restraint not in use, clip it on and use it to hold back the people behind you in line.
12. Lie about your age and grade to the cute guys/girls talking to you.
13. Go on the same ride over and over and over and over....
14. Sit down in the middle of the path. (NOTE FROM ANDREW: I did this once, I was offended because the Exit sign was trying to make me leave)
15. Hold up the person's head restraint in front of you so they can't pull it down.
16. "Accidently" drop water or ice on some expensive-looking guy's shirt.
17. Smoke next to people trying to quit or people that hate the smell.
18. Splash water on people during a water ride.
19. Swear. Really loudly. In front of kids and their parents.
20. Bump into the same person in front of you about 20 times while waiting in lines.
21. Ask the person running the roller coaster if someone has recently died on it.
22. Pretend to freak out on a ride so they stop it to let you off. (NOTE FROM ANDREW: I usually don’t have to pretend)
23. Put ketchup that looks like blood on the seat of a ride so they have to stop it.
24. Be interested in the games and then after 5 minutes, say you have no money, "sorry"
25. Tell people they have rips in their pants when they really don't.
26. Give a couple a lecture on why making out in public is gross.
27. Give smokers a lecture on why smoking is bad for them, as well as for people around them.
28. Speak in Spanish, or pretend you're deaf and start making rapid hand movements.
29. Pretend to pass out.
30. Leave large gaps in between you and the people in front of you while waiting in line.
31. Throw pennies at people.
32. If security wants to check your bag, pretend it won't open, so they have to open it themselves.
33. Wear enough metal to set off the metal detectors.
34. Find someone and tell them you're lost. Use your best acting skills.
35. Steal all of the pennies out of the water fountains.
36. Rip up pieces of ribbon you found and throw them at the people in front of you while going upside down on a roller coaster.
37. Throw pieces of ice at people walking by your picnic table then quickly look away.
38. Go up to the boy band wanna-be group and pretend to be really excited and ask for their autographs, reassuring them that they're gonna make it big soon.
39. Take an Alka-Seltzer tablet and begin to have spasmatic movements in your body while foaming at the mouth at the very top of the tallest ride.
40. Ask the ride attendant if u cant ride because you are under the influence of herione, marijuana, crack, and every other drug you can think of.
41. Pick out a single person and stalk them throughout the park; eat where they do, go on all the rides they go on, go to the bathroom when they do... (NOTE FROM ANDREW: Aha, so it was these girls who did this to me!)
42. Begin to cry when they start the merry-go-round and have them stop it because you're too scared to go all the way.
43. Go up to a couple making out and slap one of them yelling, "how could you do this to me? how could you cheat on me like this!?!?”
44. Dress up like one of the photographers and follow people around asking them repeatly if they would like their picture taken.
45. Yell out "SMILE!" everytime you pass people taking a picture.
46. Stalk some more people.
47. Sing along to every song that comes on....as loud as you can and out of tune.
48. Put a quarter down an annoying guy's back and scratch him while you're at it.
49. Set up a collapsible table and start a business....FREE TAROT CARD READINGS....TIPS ACCEPTED
50. Get into a fight with your friend about which one of you an imaginary hot guy likes while stuck on a ride for half an hour. Then ask the other people on the ride who they think the guy likes.
51. Give people the wrong time if they ask.
52. When it's really quiet, tell the people behind you, loudly enough so everyone can hear, "DON'T LOOK AT MY @$$ !"
53. Ask someone that looks like they're in a hurry for directions.
54. Walk in front of people taking pictures, then apologize repeatedly.
55. Complain about how dirty the seat is, and demand they clean it off.
56. Spill your drink on the table in front of a "janitor" and then leave it there.
57. While waiting in line, spill someone's $8 lemonade RIGHT after they got it.
58. Stand under the mist with your hands over your head and pretend to be "aquaphobic".
59. Flirt with a guy while your boyfriend is away. When he comes back, make out with him in front of the guy you were flirting with.
60. Sit next to a guy that looks pissed off, and strike up a perky, happy conversation.
61. Faint in a BIG crowd, while your friend freaks out.
62. Distract someone from getting in line.
63. Cut in line, claiming your friends are "just over there."
64. When you buying your food, complain for 10 minutes about the high prices.
65. Stalk the walking food vendors.
66. Walk up to anyone in the park, and say "Hi, my name is [your name]" and offer a handshake.
67. Stare at people walking by when you're sitting on a bench.
68. If they have a parade, run in the middle of the street so they get screwed up.
69. Kiss a guy while his girlfriend is standing right next to him.
70. Ask ANYONE for their autograph (especially people cleaning up...)
71. When security checks your bag, yell and say it's your "personal property," and ask if they would want someone looking through their underwear.
72. Complain in the worst whiny voice how long the lines are.
73. Demand they kick out the guy next to you that just sexually harrassed you.
74. Advertise for a theme park...the one you're not at.
75. Talk to anyone that looks like they are busy/pissed off/doesn't want to talk.
76. Spill your drink on someone.
77. Talk to the little kids, when their parents are around.
78. If you see someone you know that hates you, run up to them yelling, "HOW'S MY BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD DOIN'?"
79. Find someone to tell your life story to.
80. Accuse someone of stealing your money.
81. If you see some girls that like the hot guys standing next to you in line, either pretend you're with them, or actually start talking to the hot guys.
82. Whisper right in someone's ear, "I know what you did last summer [or night]"
83. Suggest that the couple making out get a room.
84. Hang out the entire day with a guy that admits he likes you, then kisses you, and then say "Oh, that's so sweet! You really like me? It's just really too bad I have a boyfriend!"
85. Stalk even MORE people.
86. From stairs, drop different coins aimed at random people.
87. Comment how good you look in every picture of you on a ride.
88. Make fun of everyone else in every set of pictures taken during the rides.
89. Go up to every character walking around and give them a big hug and call them your "hero."
90. Tell every person you talk to that they look "ditzy."
91. Exit the park and get your hand stamped. Enter, then exit again, getting your hand stamped once more. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat....
92. Find a soda machine and start kicking it and swearing at it, drawing a lot of attention to yourself and your fight.
93. Bug the food vendors asking how their ice cream can be "ice cream of the
future" if its the present.
94. Tell every person eating the "ice cream of the future" that they're eating ice cream of the future in the present and they're very special because of it.
95. Start whistling at the construction guys while they're working.
96. Yell really loudly to the person of the same gender behind you in line that you, "dont swing that way."
97. Ride every water ride and inform everybody with you that you can’t swim and everyone's gonna drown.
98. Offer people money for their spots in line....FAKE money. (NOTE FROM ANDREW: hmm, good idea!!!)
99. Find a person buying a drink and stagger up to them. Pretend to be dehydrated and tell them you have no money and will die soon without a drink. Then fall down and begin to pass out.
100. Tell every person you meet that their boyfriend/girlfriend looks EXACTLY like your boyfriend/girlfriend

Source: http://www.geocities.com/skrelborn/annoypark.html

Current Mood: awake
Wednesday, February 22nd, 2006
10:25 am
Yippie! I decided to do two things:

1) Update the list of amazing stories I recommend, and
2) Give you some of my fav amv's off YouTube (I'm Icyblackflame on there, too, just so ya know ^^)

1- "Of Mothers And Men" By: Athena2693- http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2694163/1/
Summary: [Elricest] Trisha wasn't as loving a mother as we all thought. Especially when concerning Ed.
Why So Great: This story is very creative, and you can tell a lot of thought was put into it. It tells about how life would be if their (Ed and Al's) mother was abusive. I can't describe how amazing this is. Please, just read (and review) for yourself! And tell me whatcha think, too! (Ed/Al)

"Envy Hates Valentines Day" By: Nikiou- http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2809987/1/
Summary: It's the sexiest time of the month, and Envy is being ignored by his precious Chibi-san. Valentines day is getting closer, and Envy's getting lonelier. Ed's games are mean. YAOI Envy x Ed ONE-SHOT
Why So Great: 'Cause Envy's not getting what he wants...and he wants a whole lot. But what does Envy desire so much? And why won't Ed give it to him? So many questions! Will Envy ever get what he wants? Read and see! Sweet little fic. (Envy/Ed)

Alrighty, well that's all I liked from yesterdays Obsess Over Envy and Ed time! well, i read some on aff too, but I'm at school and it won't lemme access that site. Whoops, bell rang. I'll update the YT vids later. Or just visit my thingy-

Public Vids- http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Icyblackflame
Favorites- http://youtube.com/profile_favorites?user=Icyblackflame

Well, byebye!

Current Mood: crappy
Tuesday, February 21st, 2006
10:48 am
Fruitcake The Red-Nosed Dolphin
Alrighty. This is a scary song thing I, along with a friend and her friend -who's names shall remain disclosed- together when we huffed a little too much coke...the soda...Heh...I was curious what it smelled like so I just sniffed! Yay! It got stuck up my nose!!

Note: This is to the tune of Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer

There are apples and oranges and yogurt and bananars
Fruitcups and raspberries and grapefruit and bandanars
But do you recall the mnost famous Orange Juice of all?

Play-dough the cheesecake flounder
Had a very tasty nose
And if you ever ate it
You would even say it blows

All of the other strawberries
Used to laugh and play with stoves
'Til one day they all burned u
And they, too, had a tasty...nose... o.O

Then one foggy Chocolate-day Eve
The Banana Lord came to say -blink-
"Muffin with your butt so bright...
You can **** the squirrel tonight!"

Then all the chickens ate 'em
As they burped and drank some tea!
Playdough the cheesecake flounder...
You'll digest in someone's belly!!
~End~

You may be asking yourself, "@_@ What the bloody hell is wrong with this girl?" Well, sorry to say...I don't have an answer for this one.

And what was the moral of this ... piece of crap? Absolutely nothing! Well, maybe don't smoke!

Note #2- I struggled with the first stanza 'cause I printed it out for my teacher to read...but I erased it off my comp. I had to manipulate a few trhings 'till I can find another paper I printed.

COMMENT OR DIE!

Current Mood: blah
Tuesday, February 14th, 2006
8:09 pm
Story Preview: Pain- Chapter One
Okay, for all of you that looked at my fanfiction.net profile, saw my story preview and wanted to read the longer version, here you go! As before, this is not the very beginning, and I don't own FMA (As you can tell).
~


Envy smirked at Ed’s expression; it was absolutely delicious! The one person he knew that could match his expressions perfectly was astonishingly Edward Elric.

He continued to inch his way toward the deliberant blonde, drowning in the pure bliss he was feeling as he hungrily swallowed the poison the alchemist was electing.

“Do you know what rape is, baka-san?”

Ed shriveled his nose in disgust at the approaching predator. A completely worthless bag of filth. He took a step back and curved his lips upward to match Envy’s putrid smirk. “What a beaver did to your mother in order to create you?” He glanced up slightly, imitating a thinking gesture, and then locked their gazes once again.

Envy grimaced at the remark and ceased his pace, his mocking smirk still in tact. “Well, aren’t you the comedian?” He ginned. “In my opinion, the only thing worth laughing at is your less-than-meaningless existence. A complete waste of flesh; a waste of time; a waste of space. A waste of life, even.”

Edward snarled at this. “At least I’m serving a purpose while I’m alive, which you failed to do in life, and, pathetically, in death. If you asked me, you are the very definition of disreputable and repugnance.” He inwardly smirked at Envy’s expression. The homunculus had resumed his journey toward the blonde mid-sentence, and scowled.

“Why, thank-you, baka-san. I would have never expected such kind words from a leech like you.” Envy slowed his steps as he approached the alchemist. “I’ve thought about it and decided there was one thing funny about your act.” His smirk was back in place again, betraying nothing, but mocking absolutely everything. “The look on your face when I take away everything you wish you had, everything you thought you had, everything you almost have, and everything you’ll never have...” Envy was in right in front of Edward. He narrowed his eyes and lowered himself so that their gazes could meet. The amount of venom dripping from his eyes alone paralyzed Ed completely. “...Again.”
~

Ed scoffed and curved his lips into a frown. He knew this was coming, and he hadn’t tried to stop it. Well, what would it have done, anyway? Envy does what he wants. Envy gets what he wants.

...And Envy wanted Ed to thrive and thrash in pain, bleeding and drinking the blood he bled, choking on his own existence; drowning in his very essence.

Ed felt a searing pain as he found himself flying backward. His back spasmed as it connected with the wall with brute force, taking the last of his breath from him. Gasping, he struggled to stand and looked up, only to see Envy running toward him with a malicious look devouring his face.

“You’d better swallow that useless pride, Elric, because if you don’t, I’ll take it from you, grind it up, and beat it back into your vain body,” He laughed, “Although it won’t be so handy to you anymore. But then again, what would an imp like you know about being useful?” He had made his way back to Edward by now, and was about to punch him before his feet were knocked from under him. He fell hard onto the ground.

Edward stood up, his body throbbing and conflicting with every movement he attempted. He made it to his feet and held onto the wall for support. Everything was spinning; he could barely stand on his own. He nearly missed what Envy had stated, but he’d heard it, and he smirked with what little energy his body unwillingly offered.

“As if a squalid nothing like you could even define ‘useful.’” Ed noticed Envy struggling up and looking at him with that same hateful glare. “That’s right. You are nothing. Dead. Defiled. Worthless. Damn it, Envy, at least I’m alive, but I’m sure a swine like you couldn't possibly remember what that’s like, can you? You can’t possibly remember what it’s like to be re-” Ed’s face slammed into the wall violently. Envy had gotten up and made his way over to him without his knowing it.

Envy fought to catch his breath. He was seeing red, and breathing fire. 'How dare he. How dare that bastard say that to me...'

He was about to strike when he heard Edward continue. His vision was getting blurry, and his blood was boiling. He couldn’t fight like this...he couldn’t even think like this. How was it that whenever he thought of that Elric kid, he wanted to hurt something? Kill something? Destroy anything? 'Hurt him. Kill him. Destroy him.' Envy smirked. No, slay was not a strong enough word for what he wanted to do to the alchemist. He couldn’t even describe what he wanted to do to Ed, but he’d just have to improvise. He wanted this kid dead now.

Through his thoughts, he’d completely missed what Edward had said, not that he'd care an ounce.

Ed looked at him with a perplexed and untamed look on his face. “Did you hear me?” He was holding onto the wall for support. Envy could tell he wasn’t going to hold up very long. Ed clapped his hands together and transmuted his automail arm into the metal sword he preferred using and lashed out at Envy with renewed, yet slowed speed. “Answer me, you bastard!” He yelled.
~



Okay, there's the "30-second preview" of my latest story, "Pain." Please comment! I'll post the entire chap by this weekend, I hope ^^
-Icyblackflame

PS- I don't think this formatted it with italics and such, so just bear with it, kay? lol (I know it sounds blandishy now...how do I make this site format my stuff, if it can, which I'm pretty sure it can?

Current Mood: annoyed
Sunday, January 8th, 2006
1:18 am
Envy/Ed
Hello all!
OMFG! I'MN UPDATING...LIKE...BEFORE I DIE! THIS MAKES ABOUT THREE TIMERS IN MAYBE 3 OR 4 MONTHS OR SOMETHING! WHOOHOOOO!

Anyway, I just thought I'd give you some sotires I'd read that are really sexy that I like.

1) Dark Humor by: FelisDeityus- http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2077901/1/
That's the first MPREG fic I've ever read. I would not have read it if I hadn't fogotten what MPREG meant (hey...I was tired), but I must admit that I DO like this story; it's very interesting and...good. Very Good. If you haven't read it, READ IT! Rated "M" (R).

2) On Rainy Days by: Tasuko- http://www.adultfanfiction.net/aff/story.php?no=544193598
Okay, this fic has badish grammar, but not to the point where I won't read it, which means it's acceptable (to me, of course), and that's good considering how much I dislike stories with a bagillion mistakes. This story has a good plot so far, which kept me coming back. Plenty of lemons...although I thought Ed's "other" little obsession (concering another person) seemed just like a filler, which is fine...but it seems a little unnecessary (to me). Of course, just because I think so, it doesn't make it reality ^^.

I'm about to read more once I'm done Dark Humor (Ish on chappie six)
Over and out.
-Icyblackflame

Current Mood: cheerful
Saturday, December 10th, 2005
2:17 pm
Fullmetal Alchemist- Envy/Ed
Whoot! I am in love with this pairing, and I'll be posting some awesomeliciousful ...anything I can find here! Whoo hoooo!

First things first: the very first EnvyEd thing I visited (on this site)- http://www.livejournal.com/community/envy_x_ed/?skip=20. That has some cool stuff and pictures! I only saved one, 'cause I only found one (so far) that I wanted to save. However, I read a totally awesome fic by...I forgot, but here's the link http://www.livejournal.com/community/envy_x_ed/88820.html#cutid1.

Hehe, I'll update some more later xD

Current Mood: crazy
Sunday, September 25th, 2005
11:00 am
Fiction
Hello! I thought I'd start off by giving people a list of fanfiction's I've enjoyed reading! So far, I have InuYasha, Gravitation, Fullmetal Alchemist, Kingdom Hearts, Naruto...and whatever else.

INUYASHA:
(Kagome/Sesshoumaru)

"A Smart Kagome" By: Xiaome- http://kagsess.eternal-adoration.net/fanficread.php?fid=1836&cid=1
"My Immortal" By: Napea- http:kagsess.forsaken-faith.org/fanfic/napea/mi.html
"My Gift To You" By: Ishtar- http://kagsess.eternal-adoration.net/fanficread.php?fid=1263&cid=1
"Angel Eyes" By: Ai Vixen- http:shichan.envy.nu/AngelEyes1.html
"Cinnamon Roses" By: Ai Vixen- http:shichan.envy.nu/CinnamonRoses1.html
"Moonstruck" By: AiWendil- http:shichan.envy.nu/moonstruck1.html
"That's Just Wrong" By: Crash- http:shichan.envy.nu/TJW1.html
"Tears And Smiles" By: Elbereth- http:shichan.envy.nu/TAS1.html
"Escape" By: Eternal Love- http:shichan.envy.nu/escape1.html
"The Death Of The Moon" By: Hika-Chan- http:shichan.envy.nu/THDOTM1.html
"Once In A Blue Moon" (Sequel) By: Hika-Chan-http:shichan.envy.nu/OIABL1.html
"Whats Love" By: Koneko- http:shichan.envy.nu/WL1.html
"Fatal Attraction" By: Koneko- http:shichan.envy.nu/FA1.html
"Once In A Blue Moon" (not same story) By: Lady Destiny- http:shichan.envy.nu/OBM1.html
"Dreams" By: Nefra- http:shichan.envy.nu/dreams1.html
"Vengence" By: Nefra- http:shichan.envy.nu/vengence1.html
"Cracked But Not Broken" By: Nefra- http:shichan.envy.nu/CBNB1.html
"To Live Again" By: Rurouni Star- http:shichan.envy.nu/TLA1.html
"Unexpected Allies: How to Train a Taiyoukai"
By: Striking Falcon- http:shichan.envy.nu/UAHTAY1.html
"Unexpected Allies: Chosen, The Tosusaiga's True Master" By: Striking Falcon- http:shichan.envy.nu/UACTTTM1.html
"Unexpected Allies: Trial of the Century"
By: Striking Falcon- http:shichan.envy.nu/UATOTC1.html
"To Bear Witness" By: Striking Falcon- http:shichan.envy.nu/TBW1.html
"May You never Be Alone" By: BunnyMacCool- http://kagsess.eternal-adoration.net/fanficread.php?fid=1918&cid=1
"Choas!" By: Kilala81- http://kagsess.eternal-adoration.net/fanficread.php?fid=2580&cid=1

(Naraku/Kagome)

”Sleeping With The Enemy” By: Kilaltia- http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2331818/1/

(Bankotsu/Kagome)

”A Tale From The Past” By: Kittmui- http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2159549/1/


GRAVITATION:
(Ryuichi/Shuichi)

“Let’s Dance!” By: Cold Silence- http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=28815
”Beautiful” By: ArtemisLE- http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=31073
”Striking” By: ArtemisLE- http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=544192566
”Crossing Dreams” By: SWOTBWOT- http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=544193121

(Ryuichi/Touma)

”TwentyEighth Hour” By: duathkaimelar- http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2478354/1/

(Shuichi/Touma)

“Dead Letters” By: LadySuchitaka- http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2504458/1/
”Punishments” By: http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=544177142

(Other)

“Sexy Motherfucker” By: ninjin- http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=28403
”The Night Two Ukes Took Over” By: Kyous_Uke- http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=34480


FULLMETAL ALCHEMIST:
(Roy/Edward)

“An Incurable Pain” By: Shinigami-Akuma- http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2399008/1/

(Other)

“The Black Leather Diaries” By: SickFantasyChick- http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=544191389


KINGDOM HEARTS:
(Riku/Sora)

”The Cuts That Pierce Your Skin” By: QuirkSilver- http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=29417
”Vengeful Eyes” By: xenialshadow- http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2292456/1/


FRUITS BASKET:
(Hatsuharu/Kyou)

“Coming Around” By: Aki Ame- http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=15388

(Other)

“The Doctors In” By: Koji Nokemono- http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/story.php?no=544176764


Updated: September 25th, 2005

I will update this list again soon. Meanwhile, why don't you check out my (crappy) stories: http://www.fanfiction.net/~youkaidreams. Review for me if you do!
Ja
-Icyblackflame

Current Mood: annoyed
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